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	BACK DOOR
	A telephone interview with Ron Aspery recorded by Pete Bell on 27th January 2003 Page 3
	Pete: There was some stuff with Whitesnake as well? Ron: Oh yes. (laughs) Well Colin was in Whitesnake. He said he got the sack because he wouldn't wear tight leather trousers. Pete: Chris Rea, another local lad. Ron: Yeah, Dave Coverdale. Pete: Did you tour with Chris as well as record with him? Ron: Just recording. No, I never toured with him. Pete: You know on all the film stuff you've done, Ron ..... how much of your contribution has been as a composer? Ron: None. I don't think. I just played as a session player. Obviously improvising, and things like that, but I can't think of any composing things I've done. I don't think I have, can't remember anyway. So I can't have done. [laughs] It's all varied isn't it. Pete: But again, a very different experience presumably, recording in a big studio and stuff …. big outfit …… film. Ron: Well yeah. Ah, there's some funny stories …… You end up playing with the Royal Philharmonic, and the London Symphony Orchestra and so on …… doing film sessions. Because they often get used don't they ... so you're mixing with .…… You know …a fantastic feeling, in an orchestra like that, a hundred and ten musicians (laughs) ……. of that calibre …….. it's like goosepimple stuff. But there's one …… "The Spy Who Loved Me" ….. oh, what's his name? ……... the Jewish guy …….Marvin Hamlisch. Have you heard of him? Pete: Rings a bell. Ron: He's a conductor and composer. You know that aggressive …… American…….. He'd kill! That type. And we were in Air One, George Martin's studios in Oxford Circus. With the Royal Philharmonic. And he's, "Hey, now ...." ……. And I'm in this isolation room, with a straight soprano, and he's wagging his finger at me, pointing at me ……you know that "Come here" thing with the upturned finger, and he said, "Hey, you there …….mister sax man. You there with that oboe thing." Oboe thing! So this is the great Marvin Hamlisch, composer and conductor from New York, and I thought, "You are fucking invisible mate." I got so much work, three times a day, seven days a week …….. fuck it. Even If you lose a fixer …….. He went, "Hey, you, come here," ……like that. And I just stared through the glass at him. Through the earphones I got the engineers: "Ron, Mr Hamlisch is trying to attract your attention. Could you go to the podium?" Because he always wanted to change something. And I said, "Look, I would do" - obviously he could hear this by now - I said, "But I would have thought that Mr Hamlisch, the great composer and conductor, would have known the difference between a straight soprano saxophone and an oboe. I don't expect him to know my name....... I also don't jump to curled fingers saying 'Come here'. That's two reasons why I'm still sat here." And of course the other hundred and nine musicians, the Royal Philharmonic, they're enjoying every bloody second of this. Eventually, he said, "Will Ron, with the straight soprano saxophone, would you please come to see me at the podium with regard to altering some music." "Certainly." But then I realised that later on, booked to play some solo improvisation, was a fellow called Mitch Dalton. I don't know if you've heard of Mitch, he's a fantastic guitar player. He's a little guy, great player, great session player. And Mitch Dalton's got the most acerbic, funniest sense of humour I think I've ever come across. But I heard that when I finished, he was next ……he was the next guest to play with the Royal Philharmonic on "The Spy Who Loved Me". And I thought, "Ah!" Because usually when you're finished, you rush straight off. Get down to Victoria Station back to Brighton. You just don't hang about. But I thought, "What if he picks on him ….. that could be worth hanging about for. I could get a lifetime's story out of this one". So I did, I hung around. Just on the off-chance. I couldn't see any reason why he would pick on Mitch because Mitch doesn't make many mistakes. Anyway, he did, didn't he, and it was worth the wait. Because this Hamlisch, he said, "Hey, hey you there, guitar man." And Mitch said, "Yeah?" He's got the music in front of him, the music sheet. And he said, "Hey guitar man, what's that shit you're playing?" Oh, yes! Mitch just took the music off the stand, and he looked at him …… you know when you put your head down a bit, like looking over the glasses, he said, "It looks very much like some of your shit, Melvin". Oh, what! The rest of the orchestra - you can see their shoulders going like Ted Heath. (laughs) Loads of moments like that, there's bound to be. When you get musicians of that calibre, it's going to happen, isn't it. Pete: You mentioned fixers and so on. Did you have people looking after business for you, or was it through word of mouth that you got the gig? How did that work out? Ron: Word of mouth, yeah. Must be, mustn't it. You have more than one fixer. And they don't care how many you have. They like to think you're a bit exclusive to them, because they want to be able to get you. But I couldn't stand it …….. my last session, it was for Bird's Eye Custard. It was the last one ….. I'd made a conscious decision to stop doing all that. It was Bird's Eye Custard ……. I mean, the subject can be anything - Ski Yogurts, those fucking things, Woolworths, "Only the crumbliest, flakiest chocolate …….", You know … like that. But this one was Bird's Eye Custard. And it was just me. There's about fourteen of them in the control box, because it's a great excuse to get out of the office and into the studio and do fuck all, and watch somebody else work. (laughs) And I'd written this thing, as well as playing on it, and they're all happy, and you get an hour to do it. They spend weeks or months on location, and a million pounds on the filming ………you get an hour to do the music. (laughs) Twelve till one. (laughs) The music's often very important, isn't it, to an advertisement. But you get an hour. They're swanning off to Mauritius for months …….selling cars. And they're all going all the thumbs up, and I thought, "Oh great ..... get out of here." So twelve till one, we're booked. And it's five to one ….. four minutes to one. And the guy comes in, the guy bursts through the door, with a beard and his pipe. He's the owner of the agency who've got the gig, the advertising gig, he's the agent. Like Saatchi and Saatchi, something like that. He comes in and says, "Oh, excellent. You're playing it beautifully. Oh yeah. But could I have a quick word with you?" So he takes me into a corner, he's got his arm round my shoulder, and he's patting me, you know the way they do, and he's saying "Excellent, excellent ……. but is it possible you could make it sound a little more custardy?" [laughs] So of course I went back to the mic, played exactly the same as I'd been playing for the previous hour ……exactly the same. And of course - "Yes!" Thumbs in the air. Because he'd decided you see ….. he'd produced. You know the thing when you've got to let people think that they made the decision? Pete: Yes. (laughs) Have you kept that one in your repertoire then Ron, that sort of custardy feel? Ron: Yeah, I must. I should have found it much earlier on, really. (laughs) But that's one of many. It was the last straw. I remember getting on the train, going past East Croydon - the fields…… and the trees ……. You know ……. thinking, "For fuck's sake!" Pete: So when was that Ron, when was your custard advert, was that a few years back? Ron: Oh yeah, I don't do any sessions now. Jenny just priced me out. She said, "Any more fixers that phone up, I'm going to tell them you're at least a hundred and eighty quid an hour." The going rate then was about seventy-five, something like that. She said, "Any that ring I'm going to tell them you're a hundred and eighty quid an hour. If you want Ron, that's what it is." It's not much, is it, for those fuckers, anyway? Pete: The travel as well, it's not just the gig, is it? It's getting to the gig. Ron: And the ability ….. they usually want you to make things up … and thing's like that. Then, since she said that to each fixer, not one of them's ever phoned again. (laughs) It shows how much they really want you. You know what I mean. Only at a price. Pete: Has your work been mainly on the composition side since then? Ron: Yeah, mainly doing library music. Just delivering that to KPM, EMI. And a couple of other firms I work for. EMI, KPM's the biggest. But that's not easy now, that's drying up a bit. There's only so many subjects, and they only need so many CDs. When they've got a load of comedy and they've got a load of romance and they've got a load of sport, why do they want to keep making more? And there's a hell of a lot of people want this sort of work as well, of course. Competition's fierce. Pete: I think Tony was saying the other day, pit band work now, the most magnificent musicians are playing in pit bands. Ron: Oh yeah, in these shows the orchestras sound fantastic. Because it's only ex-session players ……. there aren't many sessions. If you go to a show in the West End, the bands must be fucking great. (laughs) They must be. They're killing for it now. It used to be, there was a stigma about that ….. if you were in a show, well, second-class citizen, you were a failed session player. If someone said, "I'm doing 'Cats' ….." It was "Oh, yeah?" It meant …..second division. If you're any good you'd be at Air One and so on ….. with us. Pete: Composing - do you compose on piano? Ron: Yes. Pete: When did you start playing piano? Ron: Oh, when I was four years old. Pete: Did you? Oh right. Ron: I'm not any good. Bog standard. I play ……like one finger. You know …...obviously a bit better than that, but ……. Pete: I've heard you playing and I think it's a bit more than that, Ron. Ron: Yeah. But I'm not a piano player. I'm just not. I have had to have composed it, to be able to play it. I have done some gigs, mind you. I even used to back cabaret at the Starlight. Pete: Is that how come you first learnt to read …… playing keys? Ron: Yeah, I suppose. I learnt to read single-line from learning the sax, because you tend to do the same ... when you're learning an instrument from tutors, you're learning to read at the same time, aren't you. So it was an easy transition really. Pete: Particularly sax. Colin told me he wasn't reading at all, and you taught him to read real fast. Ron: Yeah. I'm a really good teacher at things like that - cutting all the shit out, just giving you what you need to know. None of this technical stuff, just the guts. It's like chords isn't it, people say, "Oh I couldn't," ……. but within ten minutes, and I mean ten minutes……. In fact, I met a guitar player the other day, he's the landlord of a pub, a friend of Russell's. And he said he knew nothing about chords or the theory of music. And literally, and he'll admit this to you, Russell will tell you as well, within ten minutes he could reel off C minor, six, nine, sharp eleven ... Hey….I've got this Mini car, that I can't drive because I'm banned, for another year and a half. It's starting to slip a bit, it's only worth a few hundred quid. Strangely it's only done fifteen thousand miles, K reg. It's a lovely little blue mini. But apparently it'll cost a few hundred quid to get the clutch done - it's automatic transmission - right. So Russell said, "We'll swap it, I've got a base unit at home, and a keyboard, and a very powerful one. So I'll have the car, you have the computer ..." Pete: O.K Ron: Good swap, innit? Pete: Talking about Minis, Colin told me about how you first used to get up to Blakey. Ron: Oh God. He had his cabinet in, I took tricks and vibes as well, in the mini. And my saxes. And me and him. Now how we did that .….. (laughs) Pete: Middle of winter, up to Blakey. Ron: It was an old mini that my mother had finished with. And she gave me it for nothing, because it was completely knackered. And we used to drive back to Redcar ….. never stayed at Blakey. Whatever the weather. And somehow … it's that age, isn't it? You just do, don't you. Obviously it's bloody dangerous. But for some reason, ridiculous fogs and ice, in a fucked up car ….. and drunk. Well not drunk, but ... yeah, in a little beaten up old mini. Strange innit. I wouldn't even dream of it now. Have you changed like that? Pete: Yeah. Ron: You cut out the risk factor, don't you. Pete: You shorten the odds as much as you can. Ron: Exactly. Pete: Let's just round off this little interview, Ron, looking to the future ... do you have any ideals for the future, any things in mind? What would you like to see? Ron: More "Back Door", really. But, completely fresh tunes. No remakes. I'd like to work with Hodgkinson, and Hicks ……… "Dancing in the Van" …That really happened. We'd hired a van, and one of us was driving and the other two ... look in the mirror and there was ballroom dancing and stuff going on. The mad things, again, minimize the risk, the sort of daft thing you ... No, I'd like to do some more "Back Door", because it just seems right that you should, doesn't it? Actually …… like Count Basie, and Duke Ellington …. like Louis Armstrong and stuff like that ……it's there isn't it? Like an institution in a way. But also I'm writing a concerto. I've called it "The Garden", because I'm letting the blackbirds write it. Have you listened to blackbirds sing? Pete: Yeah. Ron: You know how beautiful they are. Pete: Yeah. Ron: [imitates birdsong] ……All this. So I've been leaving my Sony Walkman outside overnight, on the table, in a plastic bag obviously ….. and just let it run, tape it. Obviously it's best to wake up dawnish and switch it on, put the alarm on. And I'm writing down literally what the blackbirds sing. Pete: Are you? Ron: For a symphony orchestra. Pete: Fucking hell. Ron: The reason I decided on ... blackbirds have written it. That's why I've called it "The Garden". Obviously I want to use a hundred and ten piece orchestra. But the reason I'm doing a concerto, as opposed to a symphony, is because ……. Well it's just a dream to do that. To write for a big orchestra like that. And I've alerted a few people to it, EMI, and they've said, "Yeah, well …..." (laughs) How can you demo that? Just send a tape. So there's got to be an element of trust in that, hasn't there. But they've agreed for that to go ahead. But the reason I've done a concerto and not a symphony ….. do you know the difference between a symphony and concerto? Pete: Spell it out for us. Ron: Well …..a symphony can be as long as you want - an hour and a half, something like that. Whatever. With a full orchestra - you can have bits where people solo …. Something like that. But a concerto, traditionally, lasts half an hour, thirty-five minutes at the most. That's the concerto idea. It's a lot of work. I've been doing it for years now. And it features one instrument - a concerto always features an instrument. I never knew these rules before, did you? Pete: Well, I'm familiar with Mozart's piano concertos, for instance. Ron: Right, there's a load of piano concertos innit, loads of them. That's why ……. but then again I've been doing this for five or six years. Because there's no point in doing something like that, and delivering it, or getting it played, or getting the orchestra booked, if you're doubtful, is there? Unless you know it's absolutely bloody beautiful, it's pointless isn't it. Okay, for a pop tune, or a little jazz tune, something like that, you can risk it. But something like that, you've got to be so confident ……. you've got to know it's good, haven't you? Pete: Yes …… Quite different from how you wrote with Colin, and with Tony's input as well, for "Back Door". Aren't they like …..maybe a riff from Colin, and a tune you put …. and then off the top of your heads really ….. is that right? Ron: Yeah, and just see what happens and play …….often. Pete: One of the great things about your band and what made you quite unusual, and still does, but certainly in the early '70s, was that your tunes would be three and a half minutes. Ron: Yeah, everyone else was doing the long, deep and meaningless again. Pete: You know, Cream who Pappalardi had done just before you I suppose ….. twenty minute solos and that's just the drums. Ron: You can surprise people with two minute tunes, two and a half minutes …. it's to the point. Pete: Was that determined? Did you think, "This is what we're going to do," or was that how it panned out? Ron: It's just what happened. When it felt right to finish ….. it did, it felt right. We didn't decide "We're going to do short tunes," …….it just seemed natural. Pete: That went for performance as well didn't it, that wasn't just what you were laying on vinyl. Ron: Well yeah. One of the big mistakes with "Back Door" was taking lots of outside influences. Like we had Peter Thorup, have you heard of him? Pete: Yup. Ron: CCS, you know, ……. in the band once, playing guitar and singing. And then Dave McCrae was in the band at the piano and that, the Fender and that. And really, we didn't need that. The whole point and the freshness of "Back Door" was just the three players, wasn't it. Pete: And the space that means. Ron: Exactly. We were sort of forced into that. And the other mistake was Hicks leaving and getting Tilbrook in. Because he wasn't the drummer for "Back Door". In fact we didn't get on at all. Not at all. He wasn't right for that band. Pete: Was that slight pressure from the record company? Ron: Yes. Band manager and that. Everyone was really heavy duty ….. double bass drums, powerhouse drummers. And he was saying, "For America, that's vital." And all that bollocks. Pete: Tony said it was funny when you were touring with ELP, and he set up his little miniature Gretsch kit in front of Carl Palmer's .….. Ron: Oh, there was a massive wagon just for Carl Palmer's kit. Made of steel, it took four hours to set up, and four hours to take down. Pete: Oh man! Fucking hell (laughs) Ron: There was a drum team. It weighed a ton or something. It was made of steel, stainless steel, all the drums were ….. four hours to put up, eight hours going up and down. With all these hunting engravings on the drums - all specially commissioned hunting things. Then there's Hicks's little Gretsch kit….. (laughs) Tony played twice as good. Music shouldn't be an Olympics, should it. I've never seen music as being sport. Like Buddy Rich and all that - I can play faster than you. Tilbrook and Pearson were into that, weren't they, pyrotechnics. Whereas Hicks was just …." I might play, and I might not". Pete: I asked Tony how come the soft touch that he has, you know … "It's just laziness", he said. (laughs) Ron: He doesn't like backbeats as well. There's one night at ... I'm used to it now, but the first time he did it ... You have a running order don't you, a list, don't you. Pete: A set list. Ron: Yeah. And we were just looking at the list, so I said, right ….. so we're doing whatever it was next. This is Ronnie Scott's, …packed. And Hicks just says, "No, I'm not doing that." "What?" "No, you play it if you like, but I'm not …. Go ahead, but I'm not. Do what you want" So we went, me and Hodgkinson, went ahead and played it on our own anyway, and he just sat there with his arms folded. (laughs) So I'm used to it now ….. but what do you do about that? If someone just won't. My wife went mad, she wanted rid of him. You can't control him. Hicks. But I take his point. It doesn't matter. We just play something else. If he doesn't want to play it, there's no point, making an artiste do something they don't want to do. (laughs) Pete: That's right. Ron, this will go on the website, and there'll be people who …, kids perhaps, who want to take up sax, have taken up sax. What advice would you give to kids who are serious about making a living or whatever in the music biz? On horns? Ron: Apart from the fact that if their burning ambition is there anyway, they will get there, won't they. But ….. the only practical advice …… this is one thing that is very very hard to say, because it is just sort of impractical …… But the thing is to spend as much as you possibly can, or borrow, beg or borrow …… I was going to say steal …. (laughs) for your instrument. Try and spend more than you can afford on an instrument - don't you agree? Pete: Yeah. Ron: Because a lot of people buy cheap instruments, and that's why they give up - because they don't work. Pete: They're too hard to play. Ron: Yes. Expensive instruments are easier to play, aren't they. And also, you know it's not it….. the instrument. It must be you. And also to get it serviced, looked at, and set up properly, isn't it. Rather than think you can do it yourself. But I'll tell you what, the other thing, there's so many of those Music Minus One CD's…. have you come across Jamie Abersold? Pete: Yes I have. Ron: I practise with them. You can get jazz ones and blues ones. They're bloody great, aren't they? I think it's great practice. The count in ….. as many times as ... in the privacy of your own home. (laughs). You can make a fool of yourself can't you, as many times as you like. It's just like being in a band. Pete: And they're relentless aren't they, that time doesn't slow up for anyone. Ron: That's right. If you've got to the stage of getting an instrument, as long as ... beg, borrow or whatever, get a good one. Another good thing is get some professional to go with you, isn't it, someone who already plays it good. Don't you agree? People have asked me, "Oh we're going to get Susan, or Andy, or Darren, a saxophone or something like that. Will you come with us?" Sure. It's always a pleasure to do something like that. And it's vital. And next time you see them, "Oh, we've got one." It's one off the Friday ads the other night, or the Evening Argus, or they went to the shops in Edward Street. "Oh, we've got one." Oh Christ, no! Because you know that's it……. Disaster looming, isn't it? Pete: Yeah, and to play with someone who's ... it can save so much time, can't it. Ron: The sooner you get professional advice, the better. Whatever it is. You're going to get a better service from BMW than you are from the feller round the corner, aren't you. Yeah, I suppose finding a good teacher's not easy, is it. It's best to find your nearest good, friendly, sax player or bass player, isn't it. Don't you think? Pete: Yes. Someone who's actually working. Ron: And earning a few bob, beer money. Rather than a set-up type thing, school. Pete: Which can be very cold, or often they can give you unrealistic expectations, those places, I think. There's thousands of people graduating from college now, thinking there's going to be a job there. Ron: And if you can sort out a musician, there might be some humour in it as well …… which makes it more enjoyable (laughs). Pete: Yeah. One last little question then, Ron ........ if you were me, asking you the questions, what questions would you ask? What have we left out? If you were asking them of yourself, what would you ask? Ron: Er, what questions would I ask me if I was you? I can't think of any, sorry. Bloody hell, the dog ... I left the cork from a wine bottle, and she's eaten it.….. Um ... a bit too obvious, about looking after yourself ……physically. Pete: That's a good point, Ron, it really is. Ron: I've had eleven detoxes now …… and failed them all. I think it is a good point for a musician. The pitfalls are many, aren't they? The sort of situations you end up in - we all know it well, don't we? There's a lot of temptations, isn't there. If you can stay clear of that ... do you agree? Pete: Exactly man, yeah, sure. Looking after yourself, keeping fit ... Ron: It's bloody easily said, isn't it? But everyone makes mistakes. Unfortunately some people make them over and over again - not mentioning any names. (laughs) I better go and get ready. Pete: Thanks very much, Ron. Ron: There's enough stuff there, isn't there? Pete: Yeah, that was superb, mate. Ron: All right man. Pete: Cheers Ron, I'll speak to you later anyway. Ron: Nice talking to you…… (Next day) Pete: One thing I did miss, Ron, was asking you to describe what it was like actually doing this new recording. Ron: This new one? Pete: Yeah. You guys back together in the studio - what was that like? Ron: We did it at Ovingdean with Robin Philips, who's ex-managing director of EMI …. KPM. He actually interfered at one point. I was playing a saxophone thing and he came in, and he'd only ever seen me in the past as a session player, playing jingles. And he started to interfere. He actually came into the recording room. And he said, "If you start off low on the saxophone, breathy, and then halfway through go high .……." "FUCK OFF!" (laughs) You can't produce "Back Door" can you? He had the audacity if you like, the cheek, to come and tell me how to play. Nobody produces "Back Door". I'm not saying we're all special and precious, I'm just saying nobody produces "Back Door". It's not about that, is it. "If you start off low and breathy ... fff fff fff fff ... then sssssshhhhhhh really high at the end..." What? (laughs) Pete: What was it like working with Colin and Tony again? Ron: Oh, it's easy innit? Apart from Tony who says, "I'm not playing that. Oh no. No, I'm not playing ..." "Well, don't then." All that. Pete: Give us in a nutshell your view on the album, the new album. What do you think of it? Ron: I love it. Yeah. Don't you? Pete: Yeah. Ron: It's great. What - have you got doubts? Pete: Course not. I'm just looking for a quote from you here, I just need some opinion from you for the album sleeve…… Ron: I think it's the best Back Door album of all of them. Pete: Okay. Ron: I think it's the best we've played, and I think it's the most mature versions of the tunes, and the new ones, that we've ever done. Is that any good, or ...? Pete: Yeah. Ron: I think it's Back Door matured and come of age, really. Pete: Yeah, okay. That's a good one. Ron: I don't know what to say. You make it up. I'll come up with something ... Pete: ... sparkling. Ron: When I've finished this table football game. Pete: Alright man. Enjoy your footie. See you later. Ron: Thanks for ringing Pete. Pete: Bye …..
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