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	A telephone interview with Colin Hodgkinson recorded by Pete Bell on the 9th January 2003 Page 3
	Pete: Other bits and pieces, looking at notes as you were talking, Colin ... Bill Wyman ... you did some sets with Mick Jagger didn't you? Some recording work? What was that like? Colin: That was kind of like Hammer in a way, because that was 1984. Jeff Beck has always been very close with all the Stones. I think they've asked him to join six or seven times. It was Mick's first venture away from the band. He'd never - well, none of them had - made solo albums. So what he did was .....he had a particular thing in mind. He had Sly and Robbie, Jeff, and Hammer was more or less the band. But then he wanted to try a few different line-ups. The same songs, but played by different groups. The particular one I did ... do you remember Tony Thompson, who used to play with Bowie ... the drummer? He was a good drummer. So it was him and me, Hammer and Jeff Beck. I got the call from the office, and they said "Can you come tonight," so I said "Where are you?" and they said "Nassau .... Compass Point". So I went down and got on the plane, and went out, and I had a week, and played it, and we got on fine, which was really good. Pete: Did you do it ensemble or did you just go in and do your part? Colin: We played a few things pretty much together, and he sang the takes as well, which was great. But then there was another completely different group in LA with Nile Rodgers and Gordon Edwards, so he used different tracks with different groups. It was a completely different venture. It was great fun, and I was really pleased to be asked. I had a nice week there, it was great. Pete: I remember at some stage, you mentioned to us a Bach piece you were recording, on a totally different tack altogether. What happened with that? Colin: Yeah, we did that. That was with Frank. He's a great ideas man as well. I think it was the 250th anniversary of Bach's death, or birth, I can't remember now, two years ago. The place where he was born, and where he played in the church, was a place called Eisenach, which is in what was the former East Germany. So the guy who was in charge of the cultural things in the town .... they'd had a jazz club running from the '50s. They kept it going right through the communist days up to now. He's a lovely man, so Frank had this idea, "What about if we do something called 'Rocking Bach'? If we do it .... but we do it with electric instruments?" There was someone else out there called Paul Vincent, who's a very fine player ..... a good classical player as well. Pete: What instrument? Colin: We had two guitars and two basses. Two Fender Strats, and me and a guy called Ken Taylor, who played bass as well. So the guitars played the two violin lines, I played the viola part on the bass, and Ken played the bass part. We did things like the 'Gavotte' and the 'Air', and stuff like this, but it was all absolutely legit. There was no improvising or anything like that. Pete: Reading from the dots right through. Colin: Just doing it. Then we put in a few other pieces where we could let go a bit, but we did it in the church where he was the organist .... there was about a thousand people in. It was absolutely magic. And they did record it. I've got a CD of it, which, if I can find a burner somewhere in the town, I'll make you a copy of sometime. Pete: That would be great. Colin: It worked really well. It was very very satisfying to play it right. It was the only job that I can remember that I've gone in and played a gig without a drink. It was five o'clock on a Sunday afternoon in a church in Germany, and I was sober. But yeah, it was very very good to have done, and it was probably something that we can do again. Pete: Was it released, or was it just recorded for your own ... Colin: What happened was that the person who released it was somebody who had a company in the town, and I think he pressed five hundred copies as presents to his employees. But we've got the master. But I will try and make you a copy of that. Pete: That's great man .... it sounds like the old days of patronage, doesn't it, he does it for his factory workers .... Colin: And his friends as well. Quite a nice Christmas present. Pete: Going back briefly to "Back Door" days, mid-eighties, didn't you do a little tour at that stage? Colin: We did, you're quite right. We hadn't done anything since we finished in '75 or '76, I think was the last gig we'd done. Then, I think it's part of the Arts Council, there's a thing called Jazz Services, you probably know these people. They said, "How would you like to do a reunion tour? We'll provide you with a driver with a PA, who'll run you around with the gear, we'll book you overnight into hotels, and pay you x amount," which was great, because that's the sort of thing I like. The whole gig's tied up, and you're not thinking, "Do I have to pay this, or do that." ---------------------------- Pete: And things are comfortable. Colin: Yeah, it was great. It was straight ahead. It wasn't fancy, but it was perfectly comfortable, it was very nice indeed. I don't know how many gigs we played, it must have been fourteen or fifteen, and then we did a week at Ronnie's. We were on with Morrissey and Mullen. And that was '85, and it was enjoyable. It was nice, we rehearsed down in Brighton, and then we did it. It was the original line-up, and it was all sorts of good fun, but after that it went again, because everyone was doing different things. Pete: So you were brought together just for a specific project, then. Colin: It was. But I've always kept in touch with Ron, all the time, the same as Hammer. We have a call, even if it's five or six times a year, that little. But we always ask each other how we're getting on. But then Ron mentioned about this thing, wouldn't it be great if Warners put out a "Best Of". This was how it started. They didn't seem to interested, because a lot of people asked .... that's when Robin Phillips got involved. He's got that little studio down there near Brighton. He said, "Why don't you just come down and see if you can still play together?" It had been a long time again. So I went down, and met Ron, and he said, "Well look, what we should do, as it looks like the originals are never going to see the light of day again, we should probably record what we think are the six or seven best things, probably from the first and second CDs. Which is what we did, then all the other stuff we wrote for it. It was all new stuff. Pete: Did you prepare for that, Colin, or was it, "What do you think about this tune, let's lay it down"? Colin: Some of those things we'd each had individually, that we'd written for no one specific. Because I'm a bit like Ron, once I get an idea I tape it straight away because I know if you don't you're going to forget it. And it always comes in at some time. Pete: Good advice. Colin: But whenever I get with him, it's very very efficient time. I think because we've done it for so long, even if we leave it for a long period it never goes away. And we've always had that kind of relationship where we know what we're talking about without having to spell it out. So I'd go down. I went for a couple of weekends and we'd have a writing session, and then we went in and we started recording, and it was just like it had never gone away. It was magic. All that new stuff was recorded basically in two or three weekends. Pete: Astonishing that they should coincide with the time when Tony was over here, and he was available. Colin: He was at the time, and then he went back. He'd come over, because I think originally we thought we might have a deal again, but that fell through. So yeah, it was just a way of doing it. We still had no idea who was going to pick it up. Robin mentioned about selling it to various people, and I think Jazz FM might have been interested in it at one time, but we're talking about '99 now when we started doing it, and time slides by when you're getting older you don't notice. Then you became involved in it, and it became a reality, and we're actually getting a release for it, which I'm very very happy about. A lot of people, when I've told them, are over the moon about it, that there is something new going to come out. ______________________ Pete: It seems good timing in a sense. When we first talked about it, it was thirty years to the day. Colin: Let me interview the interviewer for a minute. Pete: Okay. Colin: When did you start your Blakey Foundation? Pete: Cultural Foundation. We had a workshop contract with Channel 4, and I was making, generally speaking, northern based films. But as a bass player .......you know I'd been working a long time, since when I was seventeen, doing bits and bobs, so I was interested in music. And I was interested in the whole notion of moving pictures and sound, whether that sound was music or the wind in the trees. And I happened to go to Jamaica around that time and met a guy, Joseph Hill, from Culture, a reggae outfit. Who did an album called "Two Sevens Clash", which had some notoriety towards the end of the seventies. Joseph was between managers and record labels - he'd had a contract with Virgin which had run its course, and had been represented by a woman called Sonia Pottinger. And we were just talking, and I felt that the idea of some guys from the hills in the North Yorkshire moors, working with some guys from the hills of Jamaica could be quite interesting, just on a film level. And he was waiting for a manager. There was a guy called Malcolm Rigby who was a tour manager who had worked with Peter Tosh and King Sunny Ade, people like that, was in the frame for a while, but finance was difficult. So in the end we just thought, well fuck it, we'll just do it ourselves. So as an adjunct to the film production programme, which Channel 4 were putting a fair amount of money towards, we set up this parallel company which was a music production company, Cultural Foundation. From Culture. And we set up a publishing company called Cultral Publishing, because we managed to raise sufficient money through Disque AZ in France and through Rounder in the States to actually record an album. We recorded at Dynamic in Jamaica, and then attempted to get it to a label. A&M were interested, Virgin were, EMI were for a while, all of this. But it was all umming and ahing and it was taking forever. And Rough Trade were really really keen - "Set up your own label, and we'll distribute." So that's what we did. And that was about twenty years ago, Colin. The contract with the Channel ran its course, we went on to different things, Cultural Foundation was just put to one side. Colin: Channel 4 was all outside productions at one time, wasn't it. Pete: Yeah. We were one of the production units that managed to win a contract with them. And it was put to bed, and I started working - you know how you get skint - I started working more as a bass player, much more, with a guy called John Prendo who's doing stuff, recording. And we had a record label and a publishing company in place. So the vehicle was there. So we thought, we'll use it. And that was '89, '90. And things just slowly developed from then. A couple of years back we incorporated, and set up a non-profit distributing company, essentially to do what we can for people based in this neck of the woods - the hills, but stretching like the north-east. Doing what we can to contribute … and there are bits and pieces like facilities, advice…., why should people make the same mistakes we've all made? The young guys who are starting out. So that's how, in a nutshell, it's come about. And over the last few years it's developed, it's consolidated fairly well. It's funny you should mention Dave McCrae, I made a thing which Dave was musical director of, which had some success for an experimental thing, a jazz film. Ray Warleigh worked on that, and Ron……. Colin: He was into that ... Pete: Just a couple more things, unless you're tiring of all this. Colin: No....... it's o.k. Pete: I recall, as you left, and "Last Exit" came in ..... I was working behind the bar there, I was roped in by Brian. But prior to that, the place had a real reputation which you established, along with Brian's great dynamism like you said, as a centre for music. And I remember people like Bernie Holland and so on dropping in. How did that come about? Colin: I think we told him about it, and said, "If you're ever up there you must go to this place." Pete: But there was loads of them. I remember that Slade walked in one night. Colin: I think the word had just got about. You've got to remember how many people did it. Mike Hennessey did a piece in there, he was a real big critic wasn't he. He came up and did a whole bit. Pete: Was that the Times one? The Sunday Times did one. Colin: Yes. Funnily enough he lives in Germany now, and he's been round and had a drink with us. And of course Chris Welch, for the MM ... Every time they did a piece, Blakey got a mention. It was wonderful. It's still the best pub in the world - I haven't been for a long time, but it was an absolutely magic place. I'm looking forward to seeing it again. Pete: Yeah. It's going to be a good'un. Just moving on a little bit, Colin ... here's me an amateur bass player talking to one of the best. What stuff do you listen to now? Are you still influenced? Colin: I think I'm always influenced. There's always things you can listen to. It's very difficult not to just keep going back to listen to stuff. I try to keep up, and I've listened to some of the new players ... who's that guy who did - Victor Wooton, "Show of Hands". Somebody sent me that and I thought, this is absolutely magic. He's not just fast or ... he does some tremendous things with chords and all that. It's developed out of all recognition, the bass. When I started, I've got a Precision. Nobody was doing anything with it. McCartney said that the worst player in the band got the bass. They also knew that the guitar player got more girls, because he was at the front. The bass player was either the quiet bloke, or the bloke who couldn't play. It's only really when the Motown players came out, the guys like James Brown's bass player, people like that, they thought, "Hang on a minute, there's something happening with it." But from then to now, when you think of what's happened, all the amazing players that have taken it somewhere else, it's fascinating, it really is. But I still like to play stuff like ragtime, and I still love playing blues, and stuff like that. Pete: So you go back and listen to those guys still. Colin: Yeah, I do, but it's very weird really. A friend of mine just sent me something by Glenn Gould, the guy who does the Bach piano playing, so I was listening to that all day yesterday, and then I was listening to a big band thing that Ronnie and Steve Gray had written for a library thing, and then I'm into ... there's a guy I know who plays the kora, that's the African instrument, and he did something with Danny Thompson, another bass player I really like. So I had a listen to that today. And then another mate of mine sent me something by Noel Coward, he said "This is great - live in Las Vegas, one of the first versions of "Mad Dogs and Englishmen"". So I'm right across it all. I'm not stuck into one particular thing. I just try to keep open about it. At times when I'm really really depressed about the state of the music business ... Pete: Well we all get that. Everyone gets it. Colin: But I've got two sons, one's twenty-three, the other's twenty-one, they play things in the house that I would not normally have heard had it not been for them. And they played this one piece, I said "That's great, who's that," and it was this band called Gomez. You know them? I thought it was terrific - especially the singer. I thought "Hey, that's really good". And some of the first Stone Roses things. With that guitar player, John ... Pete: Squire. Colin: John Squire. This is great. Stuff like that that they're playing ... Some of the stuff they play, they're just doing drum and bass stuff ... drives you mad. But do I sound like my old man did? Not that bad ... I think a lot of it is still ... with your friends and your peers if you like, "Have you heard so and so," or "You ought to listen to this," and you do the same for them. That's the way to go on mate. I think. Pete: As we were starting talking, and I asked you the question "What were you listening to at an early stage ..... " and you mentioned Leadbelly ... I went through a similar stage, when Bobby Vee and similar people came through and rock and roll died for a while. And you suddenly heard Charlie Parker, and things took a different shape. Was there someone around Peterborough who introduced you to that sort of music? Colin: It was a guy I went to school with who had an older brother, and he was well into jazz, and he'd lend me a few of the albums in the beginning. But then I was in a group, and I started to play with some guys who were more of a mainstream jazz thing, and they did a Sunday lunchtime in one of the pubs. And the guitar player was very good ... he'd been around with people like Emile Ford and Marty Wilde - this was right at the beginning of the English rock thing. And he was also a very good jazz guitar player, and he taught me a lot of the changes and the substitutions and stuff, and said, "You could play this instead," and he helped me out a lot. One of those little short cuts you get that saves you years of working out what people are doing. And so I played with him for ... I'd be around seventeen or eighteen I suppose, on these Sunday lunch jazz things. It was wonderful. We'd have guests, like Alan Skidmore, who was actually playing with Ronnie at the time - I didn't know it, but they were both playing in this band. That's the way we'd go on. Pete: I'm gathering that you went fully professional at quite an early age. Was that it, you got a job and you went for it? Colin: There were a few little pubs, clubs, with people I knew. There was one decent chap, who I used to play with. Just outside of Peterborough on the A1 is the village of Stilton, and they opened a country club there and wanted a band, a resident band. Which was what I'd been waiting for all my life. All I was doing was a series of day jobs just to earn a living, but I wanted to play music. So we got there, and it was the two guys I was with at Redcar. Neil Hubbard was the guitar player - you know Neil from the Greaseband. He was a chorister at Peterborough Cathedral. Believe it or not. My mother used to feed him huge dinners because she thought he looked like he was dead. Pete: A good influence. Colin: Yeah. He was the guitarist, so we did that for about eighteen months, and it was absolutely wonderful. Playing every night, and learning things in the day, and living in the village, it was super. I was twenty. That was my first paid job, I was twenty. Pete: A serious induction as well, wasn't it. Colin: Oh yeah. We played with the singers, and the cabarets that they did then, without being able to read, which was really ... using your ears, and learning loads of standards. It was great. Pete: A fine exercise for your ears. Colin: Super. It was a super time, it really was. Pete: The technique, people describe it, and you do - you play bass, rhythm and lead at the same time, if you so choose, Colin. Do you use clawhammer technique? Did you learn that sort of stuff early? Colin: I didn't actually consciously learn that to be honest, I just came to it. You know, the sort of finger picking I do, that tune "Back Door", that's really just what that is. You want to play it, and then you work out a way to play it. So I also play with a pick a lot. It depends very much on the sound for me. If I want that very definite high-end thing, with lots of top on, like damping stuff, then I use a pick, but I can play on my fingers just the same. It depends on the sound or the tune that's needed. I like playing fretless bass as well. I haven't done much of that with "Back Door", but I did actually go through a couple of years when I hardly played anything else. When they're looking for you to play they go, "Oh, do you play fretless?" and I say "Yeah". A five-string, a Warwick, beautiful. It's great, it's a different discipline and all the rest of it. I haven't had any cause to take it out of the house for a year now, but that's the way it goes. Pete: Sometimes you do parts for sessions, have you ever put your head down and said, "Right, I'll learn this particular style so I can cut sessions", or are you not bothered? Colin: No. I'm not, but there's one thing that I can't really play and that's the slap stuff. And yet I've got a friend of mine, he's just a young guy. He's a good bass player, he doesn't even do it for a living, he's a computer programmer. And he comes round and he plays, and I say, "How do you do that?" He's whacking away all this, and it's just something that I can't get into. It's okay for an effect for me, it's very impressive, but after something like two tunes I think I really wouldn't want to do that all the time anyway. Colin: But some of the stuff I think, "Bloody hell, that's clever," but most of the other things I can handle pretty much. Most of the styles I can do really. I've never really sat down and said "I've got to learn to do that," because I've never been in a situation when I'm working either in cover bands, when I've really got to have it down, or doing a lot of sessions where I've really got to be able to reproduce a certain style exactly. Pete: On demand. Colin: Yeah, because the people who tend to use me, they use me for what I do, in a way, because I play the way I play. That's a different kind of thing altogether. From being a perfect reader who can reproduce a style, to being somebody who's got a style of their own. Pete: Which comes out of feel, at the outset, and goes on from there. One thing that I regret, because I've got to sit at this computer for so many hours a day, is that I can't play enough hours. Do you do work, or do you have a practice routine? Colin: I don't have a routine, but I do try to play every day. I do manage to play most days, even if I'm not out on tour. I don't play many scales, there's a couple of awkward ones that I know that I do put myself through, but I just literally pick up the bass and before I know it, an hour's gone by. I'll be noodling about and trying things, and just making sure I can keep up. Some people can just not practise at all, and still be good, but I'm not like that. And if I don't do it, I miss it, to be honest. It just feels weird to go through a day where I've not played something. Pete: Do you consciously use strength exercises, or does that just come through playing? Colin: Yeah, that comes through playing. There probably are some things you can do. The double bass players need a hell of a lot more - it's physically a very difficult instrument to play. They always used to use a squash ball - they'd have a squash ball in their hand and they'd be squeezing it all day long. But I think if you play regularly, especially if you play the sort of thing that I do, when I'm doing a lot of big stretches and a lot of chords and stuff, it keeps your wrists strong and your hands strong. And that's all you can do really, keep doing it and you keep in shape. Pete: Because it takes some pressure doesn't it, holding down those strings. Colin: Especially chords, especially when they're low down on the board. Pete: Someone said it's a long way up, that Precision neck, as well. It's a long way. Colin: That's right. Anyway, when I see you ... I'm looking forward to meeting you. It's been years, years and years ... so have you got it all? Pete: Well, can we do a bit of trainspottery stuff, Colin, like the bass that you use and the equipment that you use? I know that you use a Precision - was that from the outset that you used a Precision? Colin: Yeah. And it's the same one. I got it when I was fifteen. Pete: Well that was quite a thing then wasn't it, they weren't cheap, and you didn't see them too often. Colin: And also because it was left-handed, it cost me ten percent more, ten percent extra. And I had to order it, I waited three months for it. So I bought it in '62, and the serial number on the body ..... It's on the neck. When you take the necks off the old Fenders they've always got the date written on in pencil on the bottom. So on the neck it says August '61. It's been several colours. I've had so many re-frets on it, because of the sort of stuff I've played, that in the end I had to have a new fingerboard on it. So there was a guy, a brilliant guitar maker down in Weybridge, who made acoustics for a lot of people, his name was Dick Knight, you might have heard of him. He was a lovely old man .... he said to me, "I'll tell you what, I'm going to have to put a new board in, I've got a lovely bit of old rosewood out there I've been keeping for a long time, it's over a hundred years old." So he put me a bit of that on it, and it's absolutely magic. He's the sort of man who could do a re-fret for you, and when you pick it up you don't even know it's been done. Pete: You don't feel the edges. Colin: It was superb. The only thing is, I've got a different bridge on it, I've got a Schecter bridge, because the other one was rusted up because I was playing it a lot. Everything else, the body, the pickups, it's all original apart from that. Pete: The pickups haven't been rewound? Colin: No, they're absolutely as they were when I got it, which is incredible really. Pete: They're not an easy guitar, not like the modern ones, you've got to wrestle with them a bit ...... Colin: I suppose because I've always had it, that's the one I'm used to. So I've always looked for another one, because they're very hard to find. Most people want a Jazz bass, and they fetch a lot more money than the Precisions do. But it's still hard to find anything from the early '60s. I always wanted to find one because I thought "If this goes, what do I do?" So about ten or twelve years ago, I found another one in a shop in Doncaster. Just looking through the ad I found a left-handed precision, '63, Sunburst, all original. I got it for eight hundred quid, which is incredible really. That is completely original ... a Sunburst, you know, the old tortoiseshell. It's a beautiful bass, and I do play it, I played it on the CD actually on a couple of things. So I've got those two, and I've got a Musicman, which I did some demos for this year, Stingray, which is a very modern sound. Pete: Punchy. Colin: Punchy, active, I play it sometimes, but the other one I play a lot is the fretless. That's a Warwick, a Warwick Thumb Bass. Five-string fretless. At the moment with the amps, for years and years when Back Door was going I always used a Fender Bassman in those days. But we must have played a lot quieter then, now everything's bigger. I used the Ampeg SVTs for a long time, and I still like them, but recently I've been playing Eden gear quite a lot. A tube pre-amp, and the speakers are amazing. Pete: What do you use speakers-wise? Colin: When I play with Spenser or band things like that I use the Ampeg and the 8x10. When I play solo I use an Eden and a 4x10 with a horn. Pete: Really efficient amps. Colin: That's probably what I'll have up at Blakey. Pete: Do you have it for portability, or ...? Colin: Well, I used it by accident. One of the first solo things I did was at the MU venue in Highgate in North London. And Mo Foster was on, so I was going to do the solo set, and he was on there, so they got one of these Eden rigs there, and I thought that's a really really nice sound, and my friend at the Bass Centre got one in, and that's how I really got introduced to it. But I like the Ampeg for the all-tube rocky sound it's got. It's big and it's a heavy swine of a thing to lug about, but I like both those sounds. Pete: Pedals? Colin: Like a lot of us I used a Chorus for a long time, but the only thing I use now is a Boss Digital Delay, and sometimes I use the Octaver. Just odd things, mainly the delay. That's usually playing small places where it's a very dead sound, because it puts the life back in. Pete: Rather than an effect in itself. Colin: Yeah. I just like that. I like just that little bit of delay. And that's it mate, really, there's nothing fancy at all. Pete: Plug it in and play it. There's masses of work, Colin, that you've done with all sorts of people .... Has that work come to you or have you developed a relationship with people who have sorted that aspect of the work out for you? How do you do that business-wise? Colin: I think to be honest, it's been like ... I've gone to work with somebody, and through them I've met somebody who wants bits, or got introduced to somebody who's just starting a band, or you get recommended to somebody else ... I've never had anyone actually representing me, and in some cases I wish I had. I've been through some very lean times, not getting enough work at all. I've got one of these at the moment, I've not done anything like enough work this month. But when I think of last year, how many gigs I played, it was unbelievable, I was so busy. So in the long term it balances out, or it has done. Pete: Have you any advice for would-be bass players? Colin: Apart from, "Don't even start." I don't know really. The business is so much different now from when I went into it and when you went into it. I actually wouldn't know how to advise somebody these days. If somebody's good enough, and they're persistent enough, and they want to do it enough, then they'll probably succeed. But the days of thinking of yourself as a bass player, and just going out and doing that and making a living, you have to do so much more these days don't you. It really helps if you can program, it really helps if you can play a bit of keyboard, if you really understand how computers work and stuff like that. It's a different generation, and I wouldn't know how to advise someone who's young how to go on, to be honest. Pete: Do your kids play? Colin: My eldest son plays, he plays guitar. He plays with his friends. I bought him a Squier Tele a couple of years ago, which was what he wanted, and this year I got him a little Fender amp. He really enjoys himself, but he's got a career outside of that, and I said to him, "To be quite honest, if you're happy with your job, and you're reasonably secure, it's so much nicer in some ways to be able to play music for fun. And you're not moving around, or wondering when are you going to work again, or relying on it for a living." Because when he goes out and plays with his mates he has a great time, and it's a social thing. If somebody is determined to do it, if they're determined that they want to play music for a living, or write music or be involved in it, then if they're persistent, I suppose they'll come through. We all go through it to a certain degree, don't we. No I couldn't, I couldn't advise anybody. Pete: Alright Colin. Colin: You'll let me go now? Pete: Just one more question. If you were in my situation, up in the hills, snowed in, all the rest of it, talking to you, what questions would you ask? What have we missed out, what would you ask yourself? Colin: Um, I honestly can't think of anything you haven't asked me. You've asked me everything. I'll tell you what, if I do think of something you missed I'll give you a call tomorrow and leave you a message ……... It's been great Pete, really nice talking to you. Pete: Excellent. Thanks very much, man. Colin: You're very welcome mate. If you do think of anything else, ring me back.
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